Other scriptures that have led me to a post-tribulational position are those that describe the relationship between the rapture, the tribulation, and the resurrection of the dead.
1. In I Thessalonians 4, Paul said that the dead in Christ would rise first, and then, only afterwards, would those who were alive and remaining be caught up in the air. To emphasize this order of events, Paul said that the survivors would in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep (v.15). Thus we see that the rapture clearly occurs after the resurrection of the saints.
2. In Revelation 20, John wrote that he saw the souls of those who had been killed by the beast for refusing to worship him. He went on to prophesy that these would come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. More importantly for the purposes of this argument, John revealed that the raising of the martyrs of the tribulation period would be the first resurrection (v.5). That is, the first group of saints to be raised from the dead would be those who had suffered in the Great Tribulation.
3. It goes without saying, of course, that if the raising of the tribulation martyrs is to be the first resurrection, then there can be no resurrection before the tribulation. If, therefore, there cannot be a resurrection before the tribulation, then the rapture, which takes place after the resurrection, simply cannot take place before the tribulation.
Thus it seems that the pretribulational position is further undermined, not by a fanciful allegorical interpretation, but by the plain words of scripture themselves. It is, in fact, difficult for me to see how a literal interpretation of this language could possibly allow for any other position. I ask again, is the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture taught so clearly in the Bible as to serve as a legitimate mark of faithfulness to the scriptures?
7 comments:
Taking it all in....
David,
I know that with you, at least, I'm preaching to the choir on this point. I'll give you something to argue with before long. And I hope you will.
You now I have always been pre-trib because that was how I was brought up. Until recently I thougt all other positions were non-sense. Now I have a desire to actually study it for myself and determine what I believe...I think to be safe I will refrain from a decision for several months and study all the different views, but most importantly study the only source that matters....
Hey Mr. Argument, Argue with this: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm
Matt,
I think that's wise. Hope I can help.
Mark,
As soon as the good Bishop would care to comment directly on my blog, I would be happy to argue with him. O.K. No I wouldn't.
But if he doesn't believe in a literal rapture, it's only because he hasn't played this yet:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/16/AR2006081601764.html?sub=AR
Hello Brad,
I pose to you and others that the context and meaning of these ancient texts have been lost on those confused by the assertions of religious leaders and founders. Ancient wisdom has been purposely recast and obfuscated into religion and mysticism. Consequently, the interpretations presented about the sources and meaning of these texts and the philosophy and cosmology of ancient Hebrew sages is completely wrong. Before you scoff and write me off, you should understand that I speak from personal experience...
The symbolism of seven years (tribulation, etc.) refers to seven 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Ezekiel 39.9 is referring to the 10th to 16th cycles inclusive, while the Apocalypse symbolizes the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the beginning of the 17th cycle (seventh angel/star/seal, etc.). Greece (Alexander the Great) conquered the Persian Empire and Judea during the 10th cycle and Rome did so again during the 11th cycle. Both Ezekiel and the Apocalypse are symbolizing an overlapping period of time that starts during ancient Judea and ends now. Gog refers to Greco-Romans (...from the "isles"), which means Magog is Eurasia and the "army" that besets "Israel" for seven "years" refers to the activities of the nations of the Greco-Roman/Vatican Empire over the previous two-plus millennia.
It is completely wrong to interpret any of these prophecies as literal timelines and events. Unlike Christian assertions, they symbolize long periods of time, pivotal situations, and the flow of activities during that period. Remember, they were written by ancient Hebrew sages, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is the most symbolic of all prophecies. Consequently, in this context, "years" and "times" are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar and days symbolize literal years. Therefore "Judgement Day," "Great Day" and "in that day" all refer to a year-long period. Accordingly, the so-called "Seven Years Tribulation" began in ancient Judea and is now nearing its end, not starting. The nations and followers of all three faiths of Abraham have been thoroughly deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!
Understanding the Fatal Flaws in Judeo-Christian-Islamic Prophecy
Remember the saying that "the truth will set you (and others) free?" How does "opening one's eyes to the truth" relate to "making the blind see again" or "shining the light" or "illuminating a subject?" Notice the inherent symbolism associated with this supposed New Testament "miracle?"
As certain world leaders strive to instigate a fabricated "battle of Armageddon," it is vital to understand and spread the truth about these ancient texts to help bring about an end to such abominable evil. You can never expect philosophies based on lies and great error to lead to peace and harmony. How many more millennia of terrible proof is necessary before humanity finally gets a clue that most have been utterly deceived by the very concept of religion.
Without it, Bush, the Neo-Cons, and their cohorts could never have gained and retained political power by manipulating an already deluded and susceptible constituency. Likewise, their thinly veiled partners in crime, Bin Laden and his ilk, could never have succeeded in their roles in this centuries-old Vatican-led grand deception.
We are all trapped by a web of deception formed by money, religion, and politics. The great evils that bedevil us all will never cease until humanity finally awakens, shakes off these strong delusions, and forges a new path to the future.
Here is Wisdom...
Peace...
Mr. Hand,
While I am generally eager to welcome different points of view for discussion on this blog, I must confess that I did not anticipate having to refute readers' claims of being the messiah. Perhaps I was being just a little naive.
You must understand that I can do no other than to affirm wholeheartedly the centrality of Jesus Christ and the reliability of the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the very foundation of my thinking on all matters.
I'm afraid, based on the comments on some of your links, that you and I do not have in common even the minimum of underlying presuppositions necessary to carry on a profitable conversation, at least of this sort.
I pray that God would see fit to lead you away from your error and into a living faith in the only true Messiah, Jesus Christ.
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