Sunday, September 23, 2007

Another Question for Pastor E

What do the scriptures teach to be the necessary and sufficient conditions for receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

In other words, how would you finish this statement: In the New Testament, a person was baptized in the Holy Spirit if and only if...

21 comments:

Eric Smith said...

In other words, how would you finish this statement: In the New Testament, a person was baptized in the Holy Spirit if and only if...

...they had been saved.

Brad said...

Pardon my asking the same question in five different ways. Feel free to answer any of the versions you would like.

Was salvation, then, the sufficient condition for Holy Spirit baptism?

that is,

was everyone who was truly saved subsequently baptized in the Holy Spirit?

that is,

was there nothing besides salvation required for a person to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

that is,

did true salvation automatically and inevitably lead to being baptized in the Holy Spirit?

that is,

Did the absence of Holy Spirit baptism indicate the absence of true salvation?

chaz4jc said...

I hope you don't mind if I stick a few comments in here. I get asked the same questions in just about the same order very often and I am sure that Eric does, also, but my perspective might be a little different from his because the Lord has called me to work in a church within a denominational group (E Free)that does not teach people to desire all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit- even though I grew up in the Assemblies of God.

First thing I try to do when asked this series of questions is try to define terms. If, as I read in Acts 1 Jesus was comparing the experience of receiving the "gift" that His Father Promised to being baptized "with" water, then a lot of the answer you want depends on what you consider being baptized. Is sprinkling a few drops on your head enough for you? Is pouring a dipper full? Or do you want to go all the way under?

Romans 6 tells us that being baptized in water is our way of our way of identifying ourselves with Christs' death burial and ressurection. Then it seems to me that just as you can't be almost dead and partially buried- you have to be totally dead before you can be raised again to be totally alive.
Thus I think water baptism means more if it is by total immersion, but some would disagree with me.

To your first question:
Intead of "condition" let's try the word permissive (I tend to think like I write software). Being saved is a permissive to advance to the next logical event- receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit". Acts 2: 37-38
Notice that Peter did not say "baptism" in this instance.

To questions 2 and 4:
No, not everyone who was saved was baptized (again, think immersion) in the Holy Spirit. In Acts 8, the Samarians had believed, but only been baptized in water, so when the apostles heard about it they sent Peter and John to pray for them- it was that important to them! Later in the same chapter, Phillip comes up out of the water after he baptizes the Ethiopian and is removed from that location, and seen by him no more. In Acts 19 Paul finds believers in Ephesus in basicly the same condition except they had only been baptized into repentance(John's baptism), and he quickly remedies the situation.


Back to question 3:

If you are looking for a secret formula or list- no there isn't one.

There are a few "permissives' that do stand out.

In Acts 2 the original event happened when those who heard Jesus' command with promise (Acts 1) obeyed the command and received the promise. Marvelous concept! The more I try it the better it works.

As mentioned above, in Acts 8 and 19 someone had to teach the beleivers that the gift was available to them and then pray for them.

For question 5:

The absence of the fruit of the Spirit is an indication of the absence of the Holy Spirit and thus the absence of true salvation.

If you are asking if one has to be baptized(again, think immersion)in the Holy Spirit to be saved- the answer is absolutely not! Same answer for water baptism. The simplest proof of that is the thief on the cross next to Jesus, but I will supply more scripture if asked.

In conclusion, I will go back to the original comparison to water baptism and just like our Savior often did, I'll answer your question with a question:

Just how wet are you willing to get?

Eric Smith said...

Was salvation, then, the sufficient condition for Holy Spirit baptism?
---------------------
One has to be saved before they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

John 14:17: The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus said it here: no unsaved person can have the Holy Spirit: “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him."

-------------------
that is,

was everyone who was truly saved subsequently baptized in the Holy Spirit?
-------------------
Today the answer is clearly 'no' - in New Testament times the evidence would show a pretty emphatic 'yes' - at least it was preached through out the book of Acts, and is referred to (as well as other supernatural spiritual gifts) in several other epistles.

--------------------
that is,

was there nothing besides salvation required for a person to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

---------------------

All things we receive from God we receive in faith.

---------------------
that is,

did true salvation automatically and inevitably lead to being baptized in the Holy Spirit?

--------------------

Jesus told the 'over 500' people he spoke to - to tarry (wait) in Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. Only 120 made it to the upper room for some reason (interesting sermon material there)- but we see a pattern of praying for, seeking, waiting on God, and later the laying on of hands in prayer to receive.

----------------
that is,

Did the absence of Holy Spirit baptism indicate the absence of true salvation?

----------------

No, it only meant they hadn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet - like in Acts 19:1-6)

Brad said...

Please pardon the sporadic timing of my responses and my continually asking questions(I promise to actually make an assertion in the next comment) but I think I need to ask just one more to get a sufficient grasp of your perspectives:

Besides believing the gospel, what more were first century believers required to do in order to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Eric Smith said...

Well, receiving the Holy Spirit is part of the gospel message (Acts 2:38-39), but simply a matter of asking and then in faith receiving.

J said...

I just heard a speaker talk about a difference between receiving and accepting. I'm not quite sure that he has a true grammatical reason for describing like this but it does describe a practical difference in types of receiving.

One way is to accept something like you would "accept" a speeding ticket. Do we accept a speeding ticket gladly and with enthusiasm, reaching out with eagerness to get it from the officer's hand as quickly as possible? No! We just sit there waiting for it to come, wishing it wouldn't.

Another is like a little kid receiving a wonderful birthday present - grasp, hug it, and pull it from the offering hands to get it as quickly as possible!

Not that E's description was false, just a bit dry. We should "receive" the Holy Spirit in the manner of the little kid getting a wonderful present, not just sit back to wait for and "accept" the Holy Spirit.

Eric Smith said...

a "bit dry"??? Not sure what's "dry" about my answer? Nowhere do I say or imply that receiving the Holy Spirit is anything like sitting back and waiting for the police officer to hand you a speeding ticket.
Nothing like coming in at half time and expecting to play the rest of the game....good grief, where do these people come from???

chaz4jc said...

Been traveling since my last comment and thinking about all your questions so far.

I would like to be able to give you a 1, 2, 3, procedural of how to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but in scripture I don't see one. I do see a general pattern like Eric said, but with enough varaiations to make it stand out as a very personal experience with a very personal and intimate God.

The best I can say is ask, seek, knock. Matthew 7:7-11

Ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit and keep in mind the assurance given in verses 8-11.
You will not get a stone or a snake.

Seek the face of the Giver of good gifts- not just His hand.

Keep on knocking until you get an answer!

My editor (wife) read my last response and took issue with my comparing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with water baptism even though Jesus clearly related the two in Acts 1.

In my last response, I was trying to make the comparison to water baptism- not as a measure of content, but rather a measure of scale. Just how much of the Holy Spirit are you willing to accept? This is important because unlike water baptism- which is an outward washing that indicates an inward change- the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a washing on the inside that evidences itself with outward signs. The more water/Holy Spirit applied, the more the signs will be visible- not just gifts, but fruit, also.

J said...

Sorry, if you don't like the word "dry"; try "too brief". I wasn't disagreeing at all, just expounding.

In just saying "simply a matter of asking and then in faith receiving," it sounded like people could pray once, and then just sit there until the Holy Spirit comes.

I know that's not what you said, but I've dealt with people who behave that way and would be confused by the way you put it. It was a clarification of possible other readers.

Eric Smith said...

ahh...clarification is a good thing ;^)

Brad said...

But this, Mr j, is precisely the point toward which I've been moving (at this admittedly glacial pace).

It seems to me that in the New Testament, praying and sitting and waiting is not all that believers had to do to be baptized in the Spirit, it is more than they had to do.

This baptism has every appearance of being a nearly automatic concomitant of conversion. It happened even to those believers who had never even been told they could receive it (eg. the household of Cornelius Acts 10).

Right?

J said...

Ahh, precision, precision. That's the problem with blog comments - in keeping the comment short enough to be readable, the details tend to slip away.

If pure commonality of occurrence is the guide, the Holy Spirit is usually given through another's laying on of hands and it is always accompanied by signs such as speaking in tongues and/or other miracles. (Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19?)

Acts 8 is a great example - people had accepted Christ, been baptized, and yet had not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not until Peter and John went to lay hands on them did they receive. Ditto for Acts 19 (or 18, can't remember for sure) - they were baptized and then had hands lain upon before they received the BotHS.

This isn't a formula - Cornelius had no laying on of hands, though it could be argued this was a special situation.

The main point is that the Bible does NOT show that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit automatically follows conversion, in fact, it gives evidence against that. Aside from Cornelius (probable special case), where are examples of believers automatically receiving the BotHS?

Brad said...

O.K. This is good. I feel we're tracking here.

By automatic, I did not mean to suggest instantaneous, but rather, without anything more action required on the believers part, that is, unless you count submitting to the laying on of hands of something else the believer had to do.

But I agree, the normal criteria for receiving Spirit baptism seem to have been 1) believe the gospel and 2) either be an exception or let some empowered--I won't say apostolic-- person lay hands upon you.

Some follow up questions, then:

1) Did the laying on of empowered hands ever fail to result in BoTHS? Could a true believer in Christ really have thwarted the baptism by not being fully and infallibly sure that God would actually baptize him?

2) Could someone who was not an exception receive the Spirit without the laying on of hands? Could, for example, the Samaritans have received the Spirit before the apostles got there just by praying harder and believing more fervently?

In other words, could a true believer do anything either to frustrate the baptism when the usual means were present, or to bring about the baptism when the usual means were not present?

J said...

Here we leave the easy stuff that directly spelled out in the Bible and move toward extrapolation, at least in some areas. Fortunately, the extrapolation here is pretty straightforward.

There's an underlying thought in what you asked above, that seems to assume people are in control when it comes to the Holy Spirit - that we can bring Him by having others pray for us, or by praying harder ourselves, or by believing more fervently, etc.

Nowhere does the Bible place any sort of requirement like that; this is contrary to everything else in our relationship with God; and the Bible seems to give an overall image of quite the opposite. The Holy Ghost is a person working to build the Church and is moving according to His plan - not coming upon people when they finally get someone to pray for them or when they finally believe hard enough.

Your questions:
Did the laying on of empowered hands ever fail to result in BoTHS?
Apparently so. Phillip baptized people in Samaria and was filled with the Spirit himself, and yet they didn't receive a BotHS until later.

Could a true believer in Christ really have thwarted the baptism by not being fully and infallibly sure that God would actually baptize him?
Where is infallible assurance a necessity for the Holy Spirit anoint someone??? If anything the opposite tends to be true!

Could someone who was not an exception receive the Spirit without the laying on of hands? Could, for example, the Samaritans have received the Spirit before the apostles got there just by praying harder and believing more fervently?
Could they have received the HS earlier by "praying harder" or "believing more fervently"? As said above, God moves has HE wills, not just whenever we finally pray "enough" or believe "hard enough".

Acts isn't giving us a checklist of requirements for BotHS, the HS anointed people without specific laying on of hands, and there are plenty of instances of people who are BitHS without any mention of others laying hands on them. If laying on of hands was absolutely necessary except for the rare occasion, the Bible certainly would have mentioned it. Common example showed people receiving the BotHS when others laid hands on them, but there's nothing about "common example" that indicates it is the only way. (again, that's extrapolation, but it's pretty solid, IMHO.)

Eric Smith said...

Brad, again I offer up the believers in Acts 19 - they were asked if they received the Holy Spirit since they believed, and they said in essence that they didn't know anything about it. They were believers who hadn't been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Obviously people have to be taught about the Holy Spirit, just like they are taught about salvation.

The men of Cornelius' house were filled while Peter spoke to them, without anyone laying on of hands.(On the laying on of hands point).

What I read in the book of Acts would lead me to believe that seeking the Baptism is something believers should do (if this indeed is the point you are driving at) - Acts 2 they waited for the Baptism, Acts 19 they had to hear about it, before they could receive - Acts 8 we get the sense of believers who received it after a period of time...

not sure if this is what we're even talking about....

chaz4jc said...

Brad,

Are you asking if there is anything that a believer can do to guarantee receiving the BotHS- on his own timetable- not God's?

Eric,

Have you been A/G long enough to remember "tarrying"?
Comments?

Eric Smith said...

Chaz - yes, in fact I was going to use that term concerning the 120 in the upper room. That's exactly why I believe that waiting and seeking are both very Biblical aspects to receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave us the "Ask, Seek and Knock" passage in the gospels that fits this superbly.

chaz4jc said...

Precisely what I hoped to say earlier. I just didn't want to sound like an "Old Fogie". I don't really know how to expand on the subject because we live in such an "instant" culture.

Eric Smith said...

(chirping crickets)

Brad said...

Very sorry. Crazy busy. Back in town Monday. Maybe use some travel time to respond. Blessings!