Was it a sin for Pharaoh to hold
Why did he do it? (Exodus 8:15, 32; 9:34)
And why did he do that? (Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4)
Why did he do it? (Deuteronomy 2:30)
Was it a sin for Samson to take a wife from among the Philistines?
Why did he do it? (Judges 14:2-4)
Was it a sin for the Canaanites to go into battle against
Why did they do it? (Joshua 11:20)
Was it a sin for Eli’s sons to ignore his rebuke?
Why did they do it? (I Samuel 2:25)
Was it a sin for David to number the people? (II Samuel 24:10)
Why did he do it? (I Chronicles 21:1)
And why did he do that? (II Samuel 24:1)
Why did he do it? (I Kings 22:20-23)
Why did they do it? (John 12:39-41)
Was it a sin for Pilate, Herod, the Gentiles and the Jews to crucify Christ?
Why did they do it? (Acts 4:27-28)
10 comments:
(yawn)...answer to follow ;^)
Take thy time, good brother. It'll be a while before I can reply to your reply to my reply anyway. (Work cuts right into the heart of my spiritual life!)
I will add a reply when I can sit down later today but for now its cutting up downed tree's from last weeks high winds.
God Bless :^)
Understood. My son and I are headed out to clean up a bunch of sticks ourselves.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
OK – let’s start with one of the bottom ones – the John 12:40 one.
Actually, this passage proves the opposite of what you are suggesting. If the unregenerate Jews were totally depraved and dead in sins as Calvinism defines it, (unable in that condition to see or believe), why then would God have needed to blind their eyes and harden their hearts? The fact that God would find it even necessary to blind or harden anyone’s heart would deem to be proof that unregenerate men are able to understand and believe the Gospel after all – which contradicts your total depravity and irresistible grace.
So since Israel was already in rebellion against God – I suppose the question is – why would God want to further harden their hearts? The reason – in short – God gave them want they had already chosen and already wanted. God basically helped them to believe the lie their already hardened hearts wanted to believe. We see similar scripture in 2 Thess. 2:10-12. For what cause? Well, they didn’t receive the love of the truth – they could have, but didn’t – they had pleasure in unrighteousness that they didn’t want to give up. So, again, God helped them do what they had already decided in their hearts.
The Exodus passages at the top – if you go back to Exodus 3:19, Pharaoh decided on his own before a word was ever said about “God hardening his heart” that he was not going to let God’s people go – LONG before Ex. 4:21. Check out that verse.
Check out what John Piper (whom I like, btw) even says: “Before the first active assertion of God’s hardening in Ex. 9:12 there are two assertions that he (Pharaoh) hardened his own heart (8:15, 32) and after 9:12 there are two assertions that he hardened his own heart (9:34,35). Pharaoh’s self hardening is equally well attested before and after the first statement that God has hardened him…” (from his “Justification” book).
Piper acknowledges that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. So God did not give him the wicked desire to rebel against God. What God did was give him the courage to carry out that desire – the thing Pharaoh had already decided.
Actually without going too much into boring Hebrew definitions – where it said God “hardened” his heart is a Hebrew word that literally means “to strengthen or give courage”, which proves the above paragraph. God was not causing Pharaoh to be evil or causing him to sin – but rather merely giving Pharaoh the strength and courage to stand by his own intent and own choice to not let Israel go.
How’s this for a start??
A very good start.
Eric,
I presume you wouldn't say that God hardens everyone who (like the Pharaoh and the Pharisees) desires evil and has already decided to do it, right? Certainly you would agree that on some like these God has mercy and leads them to repentance?
Or do you think that there are some of us who haven't ever desired or decided to do evil?
If all of us have desired and decided to do evil, or even if there are only some such folks upon whom God nevertheless had mercy, on what basis does God decide to harden some and have mercy on others?
Short answer is that ultimately, God gives us what we choose - be it salvation through Christ or eternal punishment.
Cutting to the chase - the basis as to why some get saved (shown God's mercy) and some get their hearts further hardened all comes down to the heart of man - man looks on the outward appearance - God looks at the heart. Pharaoh merely got what he chose - his judgment was closer than he realized, unfortunately for him - but he still had opportunity to choose correctly before his judgment.
Since I believe "whosoever" means whosoever in scripture - the basis is actually our choice - to accept or reject God's call to us for salvation.
Oh, I said 'short answer' didn't I? ;^)
We agree that God hardens some and has mercy on others. You say he does so on they basis of their will or, but this seems to me to be in direct contradiction with the text of Romans 9.
In verse 18 Paul says that God has mercy on whomever he wills and whomever he wills he hardens
More to the point, he has already said in verse 16 that this choice does not depend on human will, but rather upon God who has mercy.
Paul knows that folks like you will think this unfair: "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'"(v.19)
But what is his answer?
"But who are you O man, to answer back to God?"(v. 20)
And even if we grant your premise that God's choice is based on man's heart. The question still remains, why is man's heart the way it is?
Paul answers this as well,
"Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?" (vv.20-21)
According to this, if one man's heart is harder than another, isn't that just a result of the way God made them?
Hey bro - just saw this comment today...
Help me understand here - it would appear that you are saying by implication then, that God causes evil?
I know Calvin essentially taught this, when he said, "Men can do nothing save at the secret instigation of God..."
Wouldn't this thought enable the sinner who is suffering the Lake of Fire to blame God for making him choose evil instead of good?
There is nothing in Romans 9:19-24 that would indicate God causes anyone to do evil or be evil. Paul is speaking of God's use of evil people such as Pharoah and Esau, when it suits His purpose, to fulfill His greater will. In doing so he endures the 'contradiction of sinners', Heb. 12:3.
Neither does the fact that God brings these people to the destruction they deserve prove that it is His will for them or that they have no choice, much less that they were predestined to destruction, imho.
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